What We Talk About in This Episode

In Episode 10 of the Joyful Health Show, we talk with registered nurse and intuitive eating counselor, Victoria Yates about when healthy eating becomes unhealthy. Victoria shares her personal story with disordered eating and distills her years of experience helping women redefine health through intuitive eating.

In this episode we talk about:

• Why a black and white, good food, bad food, mindset is harmful.

• The reality of trusting your body with all foods.

• How to practically rewire your beliefs about food and your body. 

And much, much more…

Connect with Victoria on her website at victoria-yates.com, on Instagram at @nondiet_rn, and listen to her on her Redefining Health Podcast.

Resources Mentioned

1. Victoria’s free resource: 5 Tips To Start Intuitive Health

2. A Long Obedience in The Same Direction by Eugene Peterson

3. The Joyful Health Co™ 12-week Course

4. Body Blessings: A 30-Day Journal to Praise God with Your Body through Prayer, Intuitive Eating, and Joyful Movement can help you track your eating and movement patterns with diet-free language.

Guest Bio

Victoria Yates, RN

Victoria is a nurse turned food & body image coach for women, specializing in helping women to stop dieting & love their bodies through learning how to eat intuitively.

With all the pressure to eat perfectly & have a perfect body, it’s no wonder that you feel stressed about how you should eat.

Victoria teaches how to have a healthy lifestyle built on the science behind intuitive eating so that you never have to go on another diet ever again.

You can connect with Victoria on Instagram, or on her website here.

Episode Transcription

Introduction

Hey friends, welcome to the Joyful House Show. I'm Aubrey, a registered dietitian and I'm Kasey, a personal trainer. And together, we are here to help you discover joyful health by Grace 

Hi, guys, and welcome to this week's episode of The Joyful Health Show. Today, we have the privilege of talking with our friend Victoria Yates. She's a registered nurse and a whole health and intuitive eating coach and counselor. And she's going to help us answer a really common question, which is how can healthy eating be unhealthy or when does healthy eating become no longer healthy? So thank you, Victoria, for being here. 

Victoria 

Yeah, thanks for having me. So great to be here. 

Kasey

Yes. Okay. So, Victoria, for those who don't know you, Victoria, she's a nurse, turned the food and body image coach for women specializing in helping women to stop dieting and love their bodies through learning how to eat intuitively.So with all the pressure to eat perfectly and have a perfect body, it's no wonder that you, as we, most of us do feel stressed about how we should eat. And so Victoria teaches us how to have that healthy lifestyle built on the science behind intuitive eating so that you never have to go on another diet again. So that sounds pretty amazing.

And could be if you could feel a little bit maybe far fetched for some people. So maybe. How did you arrive here in this place? If you could start out with your personal story, career related or just your life story and how God met you in the middle of it? 

Victoria

Yeah, totally. So for me, my story started around middle school, probably around like when I was, my body was changing. I was going through puberty like anyone in middle school. And during that time, I had always really been interested in health and wellness. Like, it was just an important part of my family growing up. And so what really happened, though, was I had this interest and like anyone would do. I went to Google and was just reading up on, like, how to be healthy or what do I need to do? How do I need to eat? 

And, you know, hindsight, looking back, it's like everything I was reading, everything that I was filling my mind within my education on, like how to be healthy really, was very diet focused because that's all that anyone talks about.  I actually have a very distinct memory where my mom made a comment and said something, about like, “you know, you're dieting.”

And I was like, no, I'm not. Like, I was so confused. And that really kept me stuck for a really long time because I was in such denial because I was just doing what I thought I was supposed to do. And I was like, I describe it to my audiences. Like I was the A-plus student of dieting. Like, I was really good at it.

And, you know, so much so that it turned into this obsession and became really restrictive. And so I just battled with this type of mindset around food where I had this like good food, bad food mentality that I'm sure, you know, maybe your listeners have heard people talk about or if not, it's like that black and white thinking with food and food is either good or bad.

There's no in-between. I very much was stuck in that mindset and really just tied like my own worth to how I was eating. And so I'd feel really good about myself if I was eating all the right things. And then if I ate anything that was like bad in my mind, I felt so much shame and guilt. And this really went on for probably like eight to ten years to flash forward.

I was in college my senior year and  basically, my story personally is I met my now husband at the time and we started dating and things started getting serious and I kind of had this realization that, you know, food was really, food and exercise, and this obsession I had with it, was really taking up more time, energy, and mental space than I wanted it to or than was healthy.

And I realized that, you know, for me, like what was most real for me was thinking about I recognize that if I were to keep on this path that I was on with food and exercise, that it would come into the relationship I had with my husband. And I really just realized in that moment like, I want to feel free around food and feel really good and like work on my body image, too, because that plays such a role in our marriages.

And I knew that. And so  that was kind of the pivoting moment where I really was like, okay, like all up until this point, you know, I had gone to therapy, I'd worked with nutritionists, and it wasn't really until that point where it became my decision and I saw the implications of the path that I was going on.

And I was like, that is not where I want to go, that it really started. I really started to make some changes. And then I think the biggest like just like everything clicked for me when I was actually listening to a podcast, which is why I'm such a fan of podcasts, intuitive eating podcast, because I was listening to an intuitive eating podcast that I landed on, and I didn't know about intuitive eating at the time, and I learned about it in this podcast episode and all of a sudden everything clicked for me.

So I had done a lot of the work on my own and like, like I said, like with professionals up until this point. But it wasn't until I learned about intuitive eating and especially coming from a health background, it just made so much sense for me with how our bodies work. And it just made so much sense that, okay, we don't have to control what we're eating, we don't have to control or count our calories, which was something I was really into, and we can just let our bodies lead us.

And so I started at that point, it was like everything shifted for me, and I just dived straight into intuitive eating. And even like in that moment, I remember I like heard that there was something called an intuitive eating counselor, and I was like, I am going to become this because I know that I'm not alone. And this was about five or six years ago and so I realized, you know, okay, I'm not alone.

I know there's a million other women who are struggling with this, too, and I want to help them, too, because it is it feels so much better to be at this place where food is just, you know, you feel so free and so much peace around food, you're able to just go like food is able to be part of your life.

You're able to eat healthy, take care of your body. But it's not like everything you're able to have. Like, I'm able to have other hobbies and interests and really pour into relationships. Like, I really attribute so much of where I am now with just learning about intuitive eating. And so that is why I'm so passionate about the work I do coaching women and why I'm here today to yeah.

Aubrey

Oh, man, that's awesome. I totally resonate with the, just the realization that food and exercise is, and my relationship with that just can take up this huge chunk. It just becomes a relationship of its own. It's like it's this other person or thing that's draining our time and, you know, when we are getting married or are married or even when it's just we're thinking about our relationship with God, we can see like wow, I'm pouring so much into this thing, and I am, in effect, losing time and energy to pour into these other things which are actually what give me life.

I know you said like just having time for other hobbies or other relationships. So I love hearing your story Victoria.

The Realities of Having a Good Food, Bad Food Mindset

I know today for the listeners, they might be thinking if they listen, if they clicked on this podcast and they're like, Okay, how do I—how can viewing food as good and bad, how can that even be a problem?

Right? I'm eating what is more nourishing for my body or that's what I believe and so can you talk a little bit about the realities of or, the effects of believing foods are black and white, good and bad. 

Victoria

Yeah. So when you are labeling foods as good or bad, you have that black or white thinking that is where the guilt and the shame come from.

Like when we are labeling foods as good or bad. I mean, just think about it. Like you're literally saying this food is bad and so you feel bad for eating it. And that's what leads to all of the guilt. And so this is a lot of times what I work on with my clients like this is the biggest part is like how can we release that guilt?

The Different Purposes of Food

And part of that is just starting to see I talked to my clients about the different purposes that food has. I think this is really a big part of making peace with food and getting away from that black or white thinking is starting to see food as having more than one, more than just one purpose. Like I teach that food has five main purposes.

It has the purpose of nutrition. Obviously, obviously we get nutrition from food and that's a really important purpose. But there's also the purposes of just sometimes we just eat because we need to eat and we're just looking for food to be practical. So that's where, you know, sometimes we do. The healthy option is going through the drive through and getting a hamburger because that's like what is available to you and it's better to eat than to just not eat and then get overly hungry later.

So sometimes food is literally just what can I eat right now that I have available and it's just practical. And then we have also the cultural and the traditional parts of food. So, you know, food might have that purpose of like, for example, you know, we just celebrated Thanksgiving and Christmas and all these holidays and that's a great example of sometimes food is has that purpose of like this is just cultural and this is fun.

These are traditions we have that we make gingerbread cookies together and we enjoy that. And we eat gingerbread cookies with our kids without feeling guilty. So, you know, obviously there's healthier things than gingerbread cookies, but it doesn't mean that eating gingerbread cookies is a bad thing or unhealthy. And then so another purpose, a lot of times that we neglect to think about is just the pleasure that food gives us.

And so sometimes, you know, even if something isn't quote, unquote, healthy, in our world standards, there is this health aspect of like this is bringing pleasure. And I believe, you know, God created food for our pleasure. For us to enjoy. I mean, that's why I mean, why would we have taste buds if we weren't supposed to find pleasure from eating?

And so there's that purpose as well. I don't know if I listed all five. I'm kind of like racking my brain here, but those are like the main purposes that food has. And so as you see, it's like it's not just about the health and nutrition, It is a part, but also, you know, some foods are going to be more in the pleasure realm than just being healthy and nutritious.

And then sometimes, yes, we do choose foods like, you know, maybe we have been eating more sugar lately. And so our body, legit is craving something more healthy. Like a salad or like a really nourishing soup. And so you're going to gravitate towards that too. But this just is an example of how, you know, when we let our bodies lead, we really can trust them like God created us with these systems in place that allow us to trust our bodies.

Trading Control for Trusting God’s Design

When we really get into both like practically how our bodies work and just like experience, we can see that, you know, we really don't have to hold such tight control in order to eat healthy. And I think that's the biggest thing that people struggle with that I see a lot is like there's this fear of if I let go of control, if I stop dieting, then I'm just going to go the exact opposite direction and it's really not true.

And so this is a lot of like, how would the work that I know we all do is helping people see that you really can trust yourself. And it takes stepping out and practicing and getting uncomfortable and like really rewiring how you think about food. But the end result is really, truly believing you can trust your body. 

Kasey

Yeah, and that's so helpful.

And I think, yes, it does take time. It's different for every person. And I know you've mentioned you've talked about your story and a few of the main purposes for food and I think we yes, we absolutely judge food if it's good or bad based on the nutrition value. But then, you know, that's like a very narrow view of food.

And if we take a step back and see the bigger perspective, like how I know there are so many purposes to food and you talked about taste buds being like a built in pleasure center for food to enjoy food and to really to enjoy God because God gave us food and to nourish our bodies and our souls.

And that's you know, like the tree of life symbolizes us being nourished by God. And, you know, Jesus calls himself the bread of life. And when you were talking too about your story and how it's just like there is so much mental space dedicated to food, I thought of this quote by Tim Keller, because it always resonates with me about like what idols do and like what you can, like when you're so consumed with something it ends up consuming you.

And that's not healthy for you spiritually, physically, you know, because all of these things are wrapped up into one. But he says idols consume you as you pursue them, disappoint you when you get them and destroy you when you lose them. So I feel like that's just so telling for when food becomes when, quote, healthy eating becomes unhealthy because then you feel like broken down inside, like you can't pursue a healthy marriage.

You know, like you can't pursue these things in life that you really want to do. But then Eugene Peterson has this book called “A long Obedience in the Same Direction.” He talks about worship being like the other side of that. And that Psalm 1: 22 singles out three items. Worship gives us a workable structure for life.

So like that five purposes of food thinking of like, oh, this is a, there's a structure for food here and worship nurtures our need to be in a relationship with God. So the separate relationship with food, it's like now it's integrated, you know, it's from God with God for God. And then worship centers our attention on the decisions of God.

So I know that you talk a lot about balance and what does it mean when you are unhealthy when you're unhealthily eating healthy, so could you maybe like talk about some of the signs and symptoms that people can be looking out for with, you know, how to know if it's becoming unhealthy for them? 

Signs Healthy Eating Has Become Unhealthy For You

Victoria

Yeah, 100% so I think first of all, it's like a big sign is just that you are thinking about food all the time.And it's causing a lot of anxiety in your own mind. And so this is where I think it's important to point out that they're like, anyone can struggle with this and it doesn't look a certain way like anyone can struggle with this. And I think it takes a little bit of like looking into yourself and, and asking yourself, how is my relationship with food?

Does it feel healthy? I think that a lot of us know the answer to that question. How if it feels healthy or not, do we feel like it's in a healthy place? Another sign is just when you are around unhealthy foods, what's your response? How are you thinking? Are you feeling guilty for eating something that's maybe, in your mind, unhealthy? maybe even just thinking about the language that you use around food.

A lot of times we hear that language of like, this food is good or I'm going to be good, and so I'm going to eat this food. Or, Oh, I'm so bad for eating this food. That's a really big sign that you have that good or bad thinking, that black or white thinking with food that could be influencing how your relationship is with food.

And then just like is food and exercise taking up precious time in your relationships? Are you sitting down and hanging out with your kids and you're thinking about how many calories you've eaten during the day? Are you out getting, I don't know, dinner with some friends and you are stressed because everybody's ordering salad, but you want to eat something else and you feel but you feel guilty for eating what you actually want.

Those are just a couple of things to think about. But I think a big question is like, how do you feel about your relationship with food? Take time to really think about that and really answer that for yourself. Do you feel like it's taking up more time, energy, mental space than you want it to? And if so, this is some of the work that you really want to do.

Aubrey

Mm. Yeah. So good because it's like, it's just another example of trusting ourselves because you can ask that question and you can ask it in prayer with God, and he's going to give you the answer like, you know, and he knows. And it's not going to be a huge mystery how his relationship with it is going. So I love that.

I do want to add just for anyone who's completely new to this, that if you're also if you feel that you when you finally give yourself permission with food, that you're bingeing or really overeating on, quote, bad foods or foods you believe are unhealthy or even if you feel like you're really overeating on the foods that you believe are healthy, this can be another example of that good and bad food bind that ruling.

I don't know. Victoria, have you had like experience with that, with yourself or with your clients? Yes, definitely. Especially in the beginning. Like you're saying, the beginning parts of making peace with food, a lot of times they go, you know, clients will go through this period of just feeling even out of control with food. And that's normal. And that's part of the reason why I see it's really beneficial to work with someone during this time because it's so hard.

It can be really hard to go through on your own. You're going to think you're doing it wrong, but it's really all part of making peace with food and and building up that trust with your body. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm feeling cases got pushed. I was just going to elaborate on that and say maybe Casey was going to say it, you know, go for it.

That we always talk about that pendulum swing with our audience, which is just kind of what you alluded to, Victoria, like, okay, you might start giving yourself permission, take me all steroids and to stop viewing them black and white and you might be on this side of the pendulum of, okay, I'm eating a lot of these previously off-Limits foods and that's kind of scary.

And that's where Victoria is. It's really great to work with someone like her and then our bodies as we trust them right? They come back, our appetites swing back, and we start to crave foods on the other side of the spectrum. Maybe that we used to think where quote, healthy foods and we end up right here, right in the middle, and that's where balance is.

Yeah. So okay. Victoria will you share and then Kasey interject if you need to. Will, you share some really like practical habits that people can let go of and then in the same breath, because I think when we create a void of something we were doing, we want to fill it with something good, and what can they then start practicing in place of those habits related to the good and bad food mindset?

Releasing the Good and Bad Food Mentality

Victoria

Mm. Yeah. So I think the number one thing to do in regards to the good and bad food mentality is obviously letting go of the words good food and bad food just start to that's just like such a practical way to just start to shape your vocabulary, which I believe that, you know, once you if you start by just changing the way you're talking about food, it's going to shift into the way that you're thinking about food too.

And it's a really practical way to start to make those mindset shifts. So just start to talk about food differently instead of saying this is a good food or bad food or even to start to be aware because sometimes maybe we're not saying these things out loud it's more of like in the innermost parts of our thoughts start to become more aware of how you're thinking about food and where you're seeing some of this language in your thoughts, and then just start to practice redirecting the thoughts that you're having.

And so I like to work with my ex, my specific on creating new ways of thinking around foods. So instead of saying This food's good or this food is bad, maybe you just point out some other attribute of this of that food and like maybe say, Oh, this food's really tasty or Oh, I didn't really like this food, or, oh, this food's crunchy, you know, just like anything that you can do to start to talk about food differently.

And so that is one thing I would definitely say. And then just start to again, this is all like noticing how you're thinking about food, which maybe for some people, you know, this is not the most intuitive thing because we're just so like quick to not really think about how we're thinking but or spend time thinking or like paying attention to how we're thinking.

But just noticing times where you're feeling guilty or shame around food and just redirecting again to some positive affirmations or just positive mindsets that you want one practice that you can start to do is to just I look at creating new ways of thinking and new beliefs around food and even body image as something that we need to practice.

Kind of like when you're at the gym and you're working out a muscle that is really weak and hasn't been used for a while. So you think about those muscles that you don't use very often. They're weak, they're tiny, and you have these other like larger muscles that are going to try to sweep in and take over the work of those smaller muscles.

A little physiology for you guys, but the same thing goes with how we are thinking. And so if you are so conditioned to thinking a certain way about food, like, for example, the good food, bad food mentality, you're it's going to be you're going to have to actually practice thinking differently And so instead of, you know, thinking, oh, this good food, bad food mentality, maybe you have some other things that another belief that you start to practice, another thought that you start to practice.

Maybe you used the simple thought of there are no good foods or bad foods and you start to practice thinking that whenever you notice that black and white thinking come into your mind when it comes to food. So and with time, just like when you're working a muscle, what time that that thought is going to be the main thought that you think about food as opposed to the good food, bad food.

So it's it's like the working out analogy is just so true with how we are with our thoughts. So maybe think about that next time. Think about I am working out my positive food muscles right now to create new beliefs around food, ones that are going to serve you and your relationship with food even more. 

Kasey

Yes, I love that. And I know Aubrey talks about that too. In our course, it's like we're not trying, we're training. And so the thought around training is, Oh yeah, each time I do it, I get stronger. New pathways are formed. And speaking about pathways, I want to ask you about this because in your story you talked about how you saw your path going a certain way and you decide, I don't want to keep going this way. When it comes to my relationship with food, and exercise. 

And so I'm curious to know, like, how did God meet you there? Because I think of whenever you're talking about creating new beliefs in these decisions, thinking about our thinking, I think of like we think we're just on a straight path. And then and then there's the cross. The cross is like a line that goes up and down and then side to side.

So it's like we think we're on this path that we want to go on and then God like meets us right in the middle. And so it's like, actually, I want to take you here actually. I'm going to show you that I hold all things together and you don't have to keep doing it. So maybe how did he meet you there in the middle of your path and how did he take you on a new path?

And then do you have any scriptures maybe that you could share that have been helpful for you when you create these new thought patterns to help you to look to the Lord in those moments of creating this new habit? 

Yeah, so as we kind of talked about and alluded to earlier food and just my body like trying to keep it and like have a perfect body was like an idol for me and something that was just keeping me from just being fully who God meant me made for me to be because it was this obsession that was like taking over all of my thoughts.

And I think that's how idols work is they just kind of come in between us and God, literally. They're like us putting something before God. And that's how it was with, like, trying with food for me and trying to pursue just, just the healthiest lifestyle possible and so for me personally, God, really, you know, I feel like he was always trying to get me to see that I am enough regardless of how I ate or what type of body like how my body looked or whether I, you know, skipped a workout one day. 

So that was just like a very real way that God started to just teach me more of like who he created me to be. And I think the biggest thing, too, is just I started to see that I was made for more than just eating healthy and exercising. As silly as it sounds. But that's kind of like the way my life was back then was just consumed by eating healthy and exercise. I'm like all the time thinking about it or exercising, like, actually doing it.

And so that is honestly to why I'm so passionate about, about helping women to find this freedom, because I do believe we are made for more than just eating healthy and exercising, and we can get so narrow minded and even like it's it's tricky because it's like it's a good thing to pursue health and wellness. And actually one of the verses it's my favorite verse ever is at first Timothy 4:8 which is “for physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things holding promise for both the present life and the life to come” and I remember actually seeing scriptures on a YMCA when I was running and like I was very much in the midst of an unhealthy relationship with exercise and food. And even though like that wasn't necessarily the moment where everything changed for me, but it really did impact me because I, I realized in that moment, like it kind of put in perspective. Yes. You know, God wants us to respect our bodies and our bodies are a vessel for the Holy Spirit and his work in our lives and us being led by the Holy Spirit. And, you know, to those around us. 

But and so obviously, you know, health and wellness is important to God, I believe. But it is unhealthy when it becomes everything to us. And when we put that above godliness and our own, we're refining and being led by the Holy Spirit. And, you know, even in just like a very like literal way, like I would, I was thinking about health and calories and exercising way more than I was thinking about God.

And so I think that's just like thinking about where your mind is and how much of your mind is taken up by thoughts of food and exercise and health that's another really great way to just kind of check in with yourself. But anyway, I love that verse. I, I have it like it's my all time favorite verse because I think it's just so relevant to us today in our diet focused world.

Aubrey

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that and that verse and that story. It, it also reminds me of another really big verse that we talk about in this realm, which is just like seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you, because health and like your food and what's given to you or the clothes on your body, those are things that God talks about.

These will be added to you as you seek me first. And so even like in this pursuit of health, I think I would even challenge that. Not to you, Victoria, because I know where you stand, but I would challenge it in the world of the church that we don't even need to be pursuing health. We need to be pursuing Chris,t God, the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and God will add to us and that's what's so beautiful.

I think all of us would agree about intuitive eating. Intuitive eating is neat because it’s not this all consuming effort, that all consuming effort is to let go of the control, really, like that's where the effort comes. Let go of the control and trust, so that like you can just pursue God. And then He adds these things to you.

Easy, calm right there. Now it's not like this all consuming pursuit of health anymore, but Him. So I absolutely love that. And thank you, Victoria, so much for sharing your story and your wisdom. Victoria, I know is a wonderful, wonderful coach. So if you guys need one-on-one coaching, she has so many good resources and I know you have more than that.

She also has a podcast and that I would love for you to talk about sort of where people can connect with you, where they can listen to the podcast and then pray us out, if you will. Victoria. 

Victoria

Sure. Yeah, so I do have a podcast called the Redefining Health Podcast that you're welcome to come and listen and follow along.

That is my mission over there is just redefining what health looks like. So all the things that we've been talking about here today. So come listen. You can also find me on Instagram. I'm over there quite a bit @nondiet_rn and I do have like a little freebie if anyone wants, on my website called Five Steps to Start Intuitive Eating and my website is https://victoria-yates.com 

So yeah, anyone come say hi on Instagram. I love just connecting with people over there. So come get in my DMS and say hi. I would love to talk more. 

Yeah, thank you. And also, it's helpful that you mentioned the five tips to starting intuitive eating because we have talked about like, well, okay, now we can know what it looks like if we start to become unhealthy with healthy eating and a little bit more about how to start reframing your thoughts in the narratives around food and then it comes to the training part.

So we release people, we let them go. But also you're not alone. We have lots of resources. So yes, please go and check out that resource on Victoria’s website and we'll link that in the show notes too. And yeah, we appreciate you were so thankful that we get to connect as sisters in Christ and to share history in each of our lives, so. Well, yeah, well, you just do the honor of praying for us and then yeah, we’ll say goodbye. 

Victoria

Yeah, thank you. 

Prayer

All right, dear Lord, thank you so much for just like we started this conversation with thank you for a technology that we get to. You know, I just think about even myself, like a big part of me getting to where I am now is hearing this message on a podcast. So I pray for anyone who's listening who feels like they are not at a place where they want to be right now with their relationship with food. They have started to recognize through this episode that they maybe, maybe food is turned into more of like an idol. Maybe pursuing health has become more like an idol, and they're kind of noticing that obsession and it seeping into parts of their lives that they don't want it to and so I pray for them, first of all, that you would just give them just a gentleness with themselves because as this is just the beginning of an amazing relationship with food, but more so an amazing relationship with you because when we let go of food’s control on us, we get to experience you in more of our lives and be more of who you've made us to be. So I pray for anyone listening right now who just needs some encouragement. And I pray that you put people in their lives to encourage them in this, because this is this way of thinking about food is not what is common in our culture. And I thank you for Kasey and Aubrey and their mission here and the work that they're doing. And I pray that you would just bless them. And thank you for getting to record this episode together and all of the work that so many women and men are doing right now to bring others to a better relationship with you through healing their relationship with food. So anyway, thank you so much, Lord for meeting us here. Amen. Amen. 

Thank you, Victoria. And then to everybody. Until next time. May you rest in his grace and follow the joy